Good Dog Nation
Good Dog Nation
When to Use a Veterinary Behaviorist, The "Psychiatrist" of the Dog World
Dr. Amy Pike, DVM, DACVB, IAABC-CABC, Boarded Veterinary Behaviorist talks about the role a vet behaviorist plays in dealing with aggression and extreme fear in dogs. One of only 84 vet behaviorists in North America, Dr. Pike is a specialist in behavior medicine, who is essentially the "psychiatrist" of the veterinary world. She discusses her field and how she works with dog owners, dog trainers, behavior consultants and other veterinarians. Dr. Pike discusses the importance of reward based dog training, early warning signs of fear and aggression in puppies, when you should consider contacting a vet behaviorist, the importance of socialization and the role it plays in aggression, and how she uses medication and natural supplementation to deal with dog-to-human aggression.
Welcome to Good Dog Nation, the weekly video podcast that's all about having a good dog hosted by Michelle McCarthy, CDBC, leading therapy, dog authority and owner of canine homeschooling and Kim Merritt, cofounder of Good Dog in a box.com. GoodDogPro.com and founder of the URL doctor. This episode is brought to you by good dog in a box.com reward-based dog training and dog bite prevention products for families with kids and dogs and good dog pro.com the online content subscription and community for dog professionals with reward-based dog training products, curriculums and online courses to educate, motivate, and positively impact those that work with dogs. Now let's join good dog nation.
Kim:Hi everyone and welcome to the dog nation. I am Kim Merritt, founder of good dog in a box and good dog pro and I am here with my cohost Michelle McCarthy, of canine homeschooling. Hi Michelle, how are you?
Michelle:Hi everybody.
Kim:Good. We have a very, very special guest today and a really interesting topic, dog to human aggression and we are joined today by Dr Amy Pike. Hi Amy. How are you?
Amy:I'm good. How are you?
Kim:So before we get started, let me read to everybody. Amy's very interesting bio and I just said to Michelle, I was going to cut this down, but then it's like, no, it's really interesting and relevant, so I want to read the whole thing. So dr pike graduated from Colorado state university of veterinary medicine in 2003 after graduation, she was commissioned as a captain into the United States army veterinary Corps. It was taken care of the military, working dogs returning from deployment that spurred her interest in behavior medicine. In 2011 Dr. Pike started a residency program under the mentorship of dr Deborah Horwitz, DACVB. In October, 2015 dr pike passed the ACBB certifying examination. Dr pike is the owner of the animal behavior welfare center in Fairfax, Virginia, suburb of DC where she sees referral behavior cases. She has a clinical instructor for the online education system. He training for dogs, a member of the fear free advisory committee and a certified animal behavior consultant for AIAA, B C. she was recently named one of the top that Nerium is of Northern Virginia by Nova magazine for the third year in a row. So welcome Amy. Welcome. Michelle. I'll let you start the questioning since you're the dog trainer.
Speaker 3:So we want to start by just having you explain what is a veterinary behaviorist. How is that role different from your traditional general practice that, yeah, so a veterinary behaviorist is a specialist in behavior medicine. So if you think about in the human world, we are essentially the psychiatrists of, um, of the dog veterinary world, dog and cat. Um, but the veterinary world, so we have all gone to veterinary school. We've graduated from an accredited, um, that school. We've done residency programs, just like a, you know, doctor, human doctor would go to do a residency in psychiatric medicine and then, um, practice as a psychiatrist. So that's essentially what we are, um, is, you know, we do that for the, our dog and cat patients.
Speaker 4:Okay. And what is the process? So from the time of veterinarian decides they would like to pursue that, how do they go about doing it and what does that look like?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so there's a couple of different options in terms of how you can do a residency. Um, there's what's called a nontraditional, which is what I did, where a boarded veterinary behavior's takes you on as their resident in their private practice. And you have to do 400 cases. You have to write three case reports, you have to publish research in a peer reviewed journal about something in behavior medicine and you have to uh, uh, pass a two day examination at the end of the process. So that's a non traditional residency, whereas a traditional residency is done at a university setting. Um, much like, um, you know, like a veterinary cardiologist or, or someone of that nature would go to a university, do a three year program there and um, then do the same. The case reports, the research and passed the exam.
Speaker 4:So I'm just curious, how many of you there are in the U S are there lots of vets that have this distinction or not? So many?
Speaker 3:Not so many. Um, there are now 84 veterinary behaviors in all of North America. Um, and several of those actually have moved to other countries. So we have a couple in Europe, um, you know, obviously don't practice over here. And then we have a couple in Australia as well, but not so many.
Speaker 4:So how do we know if our vet has this distinction?
Speaker 3:So there are going to be letters behind the name. So for a veterinarian, we have DVM, which is the doctor of veterinary medicine or a VMD if you've graduated from the university of Pennsylvania. Um, and then a veterinary behaviorist will have the letters D a CVB, which stands for a diplomat of the American college of veterinary behavior.
Speaker 4:Interesting. So one question I have, and I think a lot of times, even when I'm working with clients and I refer them off to have that behaviorist, you know, I do behavior consultations. I'm, I'm a certified behavior consultant. I'm, I don't have a master's degree. I work, you know, I was certified through the I a B, C. so I'm always very clear with my clients. You know, these are, this is my skill set, but often I have clients that I feel very strongly need to be seen by a vet behaviorist. And people will always say, well, why is that a big deal? You know, my, my traditional that said that they, that they can solve the problem. Um, how do we convey to our clients what is that, why is it so important that of that behavior to be boarded?
Speaker 3:Right? So there are several PR, you know, some things that may feel comfortable with behavioral medicine, but they haven't undergone the, the level of training that we have undergone. Um, it would be like going to see your family practitioner for a brain tumor. You wouldn't want to go, you know, have them do surgery, right? You're going to go to a boarded neurologist and neurosurgeon. Very similar, right? You're not, you, your general practitioner may dabble in psychiatric medicine, like maybe be able to put you on Prozac. But if that doesn't work, um, then they may be at a loss. And that's sort of where we come into play is one, we take the whole animal into account in terms of is this a medical disorder? Cause as veterinarians we know and treat those as well as what medication, um, or products interventions would be best for that patient.
Speaker 4:Right. I know I'm often trying to explain to people that is as a veterinary behaviorist you have much more understanding of how to use medication, how medications can interact with each other and how to monitor that animal on those medications. I meet clients unfortunately whose dogs are on very unusual cocktails of, you know, net, you know, prescription medication and then they start kind of going on the internet and adding in natural supplements because they read something somewhere on Facebook that said it was a good idea. And you know, I've, I've had just general practice vets become very concerned because they don't even understand how all these meds are interacting with each other. Um, and so I try to always explain, yeah,
Speaker 3:yeah, that's exactly what we do. We know, we know, you know, cytochrome system, which is just a big fancy word about how it's metabolized and, um, we know what interactions, drug interactions, potential or um, you know, most common are going to happen. And it's just, it's one of those things where, you know, you learn so much in veterinary school, we have to learn about 12 different species of animals through veterinary school. And you know, we joke that we're better doctors because they only have to learn one. Right. Um, and so now we know all of this stuff, but we haven't really delved in, in depth into, you know, various organ systems like the brain and the brain is an organ just like the heart. And there are specialists for every single organ system in the body.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So does a vet behaviors or the majority of your clients, uh, are you using medication with them or not necessarily?
Speaker 3:I would say the majority of our, of my patients do get medication, um, or, and, or natural products depending on, um, the case or the owner's wishes. Um, mostly because what I can do, Michelle can do too, in terms of the behavior modification piece. Um, we're both, you know, I ABC certified and so we've gone through that certification in terms of our training and behavior modification, um, qualifications. And then the, as a veterinary behaviors. The sort of added level of what I can do for one of her clients is that, you know, we can prescribe the appropriate medications to help really decrease intensity and frequency of behaviors and, um, better the, the patient's recovery if they get triggered. So are you kind of the last resort in a lot of cases? Unfortunately. Am I wish we were sort of the first stop along the way. Um, and I, and much, much sooner than a lot of these patients get referred. Um, but I do get told that I am the last resort. It's by clients. They're, they're on the verge of euthanizing, um, if we can't help and, and so, you know, medication sometimes, uh, unfortunately is the last resort. I wish it would be much sooner in the process to be honest.
Speaker 4:So in your practice, um, you know, always looking at your website and it looks like you have a, a great team. Um, can you share, like who, who's part of your team and what are their roles?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we have, um, in myself and another veterinarian who's in her residency, so she's doing a nontraditional residency with me currently. Um, we have two veterinary nurses who are, um, licensed vet techs or LVTs, uh, one of whom actually has her specialty in, uh, behavior as well. So there's a that technician specialty in behavior, um, and there are only 11 of them, so she is one that is, she's even smaller group. Um, so we have the two nurses and then we have three trainers, um, on staff as well. So we have a gene Donaldson Academy graduate. We have a CPDT, um, and CBCC K a M trainer. And then we have, one of my trainers is actually has a bachelor's in, um, human psychology and has come on as one of our dog trainers. So it's a good team. It's like the psychiatrist and the psychologist and the social worker all working together to, you know, help the patient.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So you can really offer a client the entire process. Um, cause one thing, yeah. The one thing that you know, that I find myself explaining to people, um, and I'm sure you can do a much better job of doing that is, is behavior modification and training the same thing?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah. That's, it depends on who you ask, right. What their definitions are. So in my mind, training is more like the obedience type stuff. Like you do a sit, you do a stay down, et cetera. Um, whereas behavior modification is really focused on changing the emotional underpinning of a behavior. So instead of lunging and growling at strangers, cause I don't like them, what should I do instead? And let's conditioning to actually either enjoy strangers because they bring me chicken or cheese or whatever the case may be, or at least be neutral towards them. So it's more about changing an emotional state than just performing a cue.
Speaker 4:Right. You know, they, they're just so different to those of us that that work. And we know that teaching a terrified dog to sit when he really is just wanting to run and hide, it's not really fixing the problem. And it's very challenging as you know, at times to, to try to help people understand that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean the training field is so unregulated as you know, so anyone can call themselves a trainer. Um, veterinarians can't call themselves veterinary behaviorist until they're actually board certified like myself. Um, so even like my resident, she has to say practice limited to behavior. Um, she can't call herself a veterinary behaviorist cause she's not boarded yet, but anyone can call themselves a trainer. Anyone can call themselves a quote. Behaviorist. Um, and abs have absolutely no background knowledge in the actual subject.
Speaker 4:I know it's very frustrating. I know myself, I've worked out for 20 years and, and I'll even correct people, they'll say, or you're behaviorist. And I'm like, no, I'm not a behaviorist behavior consultant. And there's, to me a very big difference. Yeah. And I've always deferred that. Yeah. And for years, you know, I've, I've had great partnerships with a couple of different vet behaviorists and in the vets that I work with have good relationships. So we have this really good protocol of trying to work as a team. But there is such a need I think for trainers and people who are even behaviorists to rely more heavily on doctors such as yourself that you're really helping us do our jobs better, but we have to defer to you and seek out more direction and not take on these very dangerous cases. I'll have trainers share with me some of the cases that they'll take on. I mean, it's terrifying because people's safety's at risk, the dog is at risk and there seems to still be, as you said, because it's unregulated industry, it's kind of a wild West of training sometimes and scary from the dog owners standpoint. How does, how does an owner know that it's time to come to see somebody like you?
Speaker 3:So they may have been told by their primary care veterinarian, they may have approached them and said, Hey, you know, my dog is doing X, Y, and Z and they're the primary care veterinarian may refer them. I often get trainer referrals, um, from trainers who know that this goes beyond their skillset or that the animal's going to need medication before they actually can truly learn. And so, um, those are all great ways is talk to professionals in, um, in the field. But if your pet is, you know, anxious or fearful or showing any sort of aggression because the majority of those STEM from fear, um, which we can help with and that is definitely the time to seek out, um, a qualified professional.
Speaker 4:So in your experience or our topic today is dogged to human aggression, how prevalent is that in your practice?
Speaker 3:It is the number one C. um, I'm, I have a very skewed view obviously in terms of prevalence in the greater community, but I do think it's a big issue. Um, you know, we live in DC, Northern Virginia. It's very, very crowded here in both people and very dog friendly. But, um, we see a lot of dogs with a dog to human aggression, whether it be towards their own core, um, strangers.
Speaker 4:So when you look at a client coming in, um, you know, how, how bad does it typically have to get before the average person will even say this is aggression. Some people, as you know, they kind of miss, Oh, he's just so happy, gets over excited. Um, and they start labeling how do we help people understand? And maybe you can help us to clarify, you know, what falls into that category of this is aggressive behavior. It's not just reactivity, which is another big word that gets thrown around, right?
Speaker 3:Right. I mean, I always tell people if the dog dog or cat is trying to increase distance between whatever they find scary, that's aggression. However they do it, whether it'd be barking, growling, snarling, snapping, eating. Some people don't want to, um, classify it as aggression. Lay people don't want to classify it as aggression until there's an actual bite. But any strategy to try and get rid of your, um, your fear is, is potentially an aggressive strategy. Um, whether that be could turn into a bite depending on the circumstances. And so, you know, sooner rather than later, people need to be coming in. Um, cause you definitely don't want to let it get to the point where the dog feels like they have to use biting as a strategy.
Speaker 4:So a lot of what the, the average pet owners, EAs as, Oh my, my puppies, this, these just shy. Um, you know, he's slow to warm up. And so some of those subtle behaviors are really, really falling more into this is a dog who's trying to communicate with you very clearly. I do not feel good about what's going on right now.
Speaker 3:Beckley and, and fear is a precursor to outright aggression because that's where it stems from. That's the emotion that's driving that behavior. And we do see a lot of dogs that come in around age two or three, which is behavioral maturity. That's when dogs become adults. And they may have started showing some aggression, barking, Starling, et cetera. But come to find out, you know, in the first three years of their life, they were very, very fearful. And now that they're an adult, they feel more confident. They know that aggression works as a behavioral strategy. And so the owners are starting to see this. So if we can intervene, you know, early on when that puppy is fearful, then we can help that dog grow into a, you know, uh, you know, good member of our society because they are not scared anymore.
Kim:And is there anything in particular you have as advice to the dog owner? Not the professional but the dog owner about what to do with their dog, their puppy when they first get it or in the first several weeks and months to try to avoid some of these behaviors later on?
Speaker 3:It's, well, it's really important that we have, um, good socialization during that early formative until about 16 weeks of age. That's when, um, dogs are more receptive to new people, new places, new things, and they need to be exposed to those things in a very positive fashion. If, if they don't see a lady wearing a hat with an umbrella up til six weeks, 16 weeks of age, when they see it at age one, they're going to be like, wait, what is this crazy thing? Right? So getting enrolled in puppy socialization classes, um, you know, going to puppy play dates that your veterinary, your veterinary hospital, those types of things are very, very important during that really key period of time. And then if you see any sort of fear addressing that sooner rather than later because again, that fear could potentially, um, migrate to aggression later on.
Kim:And when somebody would first see that. Is it somebody, is it a reward based trainer? Is it somebody like Michelle, a behavior consultant? Or is it a veterinary behavior? Is that somebody should start with?
Speaker 3:I would say it depends on the, the extent of the fear. So, um, you know, definitely wanna use positive reinforcement based training regardless. And so good. So puppy socialization classes can be run by, um, you know, positive reinforcement trainers. But if we're seeing that fear, the likelihood is that we need to go to that next step. And we need to go to a behavior consultant, if not a veterinary behaviorist, um, to intervene. Okay.
Speaker 4:Many, many years ago I was called to a client's home. Um, they just gotten a puppy and this puppy, they said, well, we're really concerned about him. He's not like any of our other dogs. And I showed up at their home. This puppy had probably the worst resource guarding. I've never seen that in a puppy, a 10 week old puppy. And they were afraid. They were afraid of him. I've never had a puppy make the hair on the back of my neck stand up. And you know, I immediately said to them, this is so severe that you need to immediately go to our local vet behaviorist. And they know, we think if we just socialize him and if we do all these things. And, and it was really hard news for me to give them because nobody wants to hear that about their puppy that they just brought home. And when they shared his background, there were probably contributing factors to where he came from, how he had been welcomed and raised. Um, but it was a very scary situation. Long story short, they didn't get to the vet behaviorist until he was almost two and he was used to youth and I did three after his fourth very severe bite. Um, and it was heartbreaking. And you know, trying to change people's mindset about even puppies can need immediate intervention. Um, the best chance, the best chance they have is when they're 10 weeks old. If you identify something really kind of going sideways, absolutely. Um, it, but it's hard news to give someone
Speaker 3:cause nobody wants to, you know, think about putting their puppy on Prozac or you know, whatever other medication. But honestly that's the best time to do it because there are so neurologically malleable like we can, you know, manipulate those neurons to help them. So much so that at age three we're not euthanizing for this behavior. Like we, we have potential. The sooner we get in there and help.
Speaker 4:Oh, so one question I have for pet people, cause this comes up a lot, but I can't take my puppy out and socialize them. My vet said they have to be fully vaccinated, which puts them at four to five months of age. Right? So how do we, maybe older. So how do we, I mean, I know what I say to people, I start pulling down all the EVMA, you know, flyers. Um, what, how do we help people understand you have a better chance of, of treating kennel cough than you do of, of fixing inadequate socialization.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. So it used to be that veterinarians, and I mean I've been in this field long enough that I was one of those veterinarians that said you can't take your puppy anywhere until it's fully vaccinated because of the risk of diseases like parvo and distemper. But[inaudible] socialization is like vaccinating for future behavior problems. That's what I think about it as. And the risk of those viruses is very, very low, if not next to zero in a very well run socialization class. So there was actually a study done out of UC Davis looking at the risk of parvo virus, um, in puppies that didn't intend socialization. And those that did and there was absolutely zero risk across the puppies that attended puppy socialization classes. So we use descend that kill those diseases. Puppies have to have been in the household long enough that if they have broken with any sort of, you know, vomiting or diarrhea or upper respiratory issues, we will have caught it by then. Um, and no puppy has allowed in class if they're feeling ill and owners have to sign up. You know, for like our class, the owners have to sign a contract that says if my puppy is ill, I will not bring them in until they've been checked out by my veterinarian. So it's very important that we get those puppies out and about, you know, you're not taking them to dog parks where you don't know the, the vaccine. Three of the dogs that attend there, you're going to class where other puppy owners responsible puppy owners are getting their pups vaccinated. They're coming from, you know, reputable sources and they're, see they're seeking veterinary care if they have any issues. So it's really, really important that we just get rid of that myth of don't take them anywhere cause it's, it's key.
Speaker 4:I used to get a lot of kickback in my puppy class. It was a four week, like straight play structured group. But I made people commit to during that four weeks they would not go to daycare with their puppy. They wouldn't go to the groomer, they wouldn't go to a dog park. They would just play in clean environments like their backyard and have people come to your yard and play, but then don't have a dog park dog come to your house and play. Right. Just for just for four weeks. And I, and I, I didn't feel it was unreasonable because we give the puppies the much needed socialization and we minimize the risk. Um, but it's so important for people to understand. Um, you know, you can, you can treat them for some vomiting and diarrhea and those did parvo. It is very dangerous. Yes. If a puppy gets it, but it's a lifetime of horrible stuff if they're not socialized.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Yep. I think it's worse. I do too. I'd rather treat parvo. Yeah.
Kim:I'm curious and I know exactly what ma Michelle and my view is, but I'd love to hear from your point of view, why does a dog owner want to use reward based training versus shock collars and choke collars and prong collars? What, what do you see and what's your reasoning for recommending reward based training?
Speaker 3:Um, I mean, there's so many reasons why, but the first one being a better bond with your animal. You're, your pet wants to work with you because you're given it a paycheck at the end of the day. Just like, you know, I, I like my job but I'm not gonna come do it without my clients paying me. Right. So it just is that bond and, um, facilitates a very, very nice one step where is punishment? Um, it can potentially increase fear and anxiety, which is the last thing we obviously want to do for our pets. But it can ruin that relationship because the dog doesn't trust you and, um, is afraid that, you know, you're gonna use these, um, tools on them.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. What is your thought? You know, it's very becoming more popular here in Michigan where I live, but a lot of people get their puppy and they want to ship them off to bootcamp four for three to four weeks. And you know, I have people not as much anymore but would contact me, Oh, can you take my puppy for a month and just send it back when it's trained. And it comes back to what you said is like how can you bond during that critical time if you don't even have the puppy? And then how do you know how your puppy is truly being handled? Okay.
Speaker 3:Faculty and the majority of bootcamps, I don't know about Michigan, but around here we only have one. Um, send away camp that's actually positive reinforcement based. Um, everything else uses shock collars and prong collar. Yeah. So you know that you don't see how your puppies treated. But I always tell, um, you know, people, I could take your dog home and do X, Y,Z over the next two weeks. It's more about me training you and then you bonding with your pup through this process. And that's really what is key there.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. Okay. Can you speak on genetics and how much that plays apart into aggression and slips and what you treat?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. So it is nature versus nurture and there's a combination of the two that factor into behavior. Um, we think about 30% of behavior comes from a genetic, a genetic component of some sort. And whether there's like an environmental, um, influence on that gene or, um, it's a standalone type thing. We're not entirely sure. We haven't really teased all those pieces out, but we do know that like working ability, um, let's say in our, like our military working dogs or police dogs comes from the mother's side of, um, the gene line. We think that fear and anxiety potentially come from the father. We know friendliness in cats actually comes from the fathers, um, line. And so genetics definitely can play a role in, um, what we see behavior wise. And so I always tell people, if they have not seen the mother or the father when they're picking out a puppet, let's say a breeder, um, that's a big red flag for me because I want to know how those animals behave.
Speaker 4:And what would you, what would you say to somebody? What do they want to look for?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So you want to look for sociable animals, right? Does, is the mom, you know, willing to, um, come up and approach and interact with you as a stranger or you know, have you interact with the puppies? Are you, um, you know, not allowed to see the father cause he's, you know, in a kennel somewhere and barking and lunging and growling at the kennel door and you're not allowed to go over there. That's, you know, obviously a huge risk factor for potential aggression in the future. Um, but then in terms of the puppy's behavior too, you wanna look for the pup that is, um, you know, social and plays with its, um, let our mates and approaches you. I always tell'em I always get owners of those, say like I picked this puppy out cause she was the quietest one. I was like yeah, that's probably because she was so, yeah, you want to approach it all. And so she was nice and shut down and um, that's a big red flag, uh, right there. So definitely one of the ones that's the bouncy crazy puppy. Cause that's what you want at that age.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And it's hard when people, whether they're working with the rescue or shelter breeder, people tend to go in looking for the, for something that really is not what they want long term. You know? Oh he had the prettiest eyes but he was hiding in the corner or you know, she was the color we liked, but she was barking hysterically when you came into the room. And people really feel that that's just how puppies are and that they'll outgrow it.
Speaker 3:Yes. I hear that a lot. Like why aren't they just going to outgrow it? And you don't outgrow behaviors like that. You absolutely grow into them if nothing is done to them.
Kim:Oh for that. So Amy, as we're, as we're wrapping up, uh, for, uh, the show, can you give a top couple tips to dog owners as to, you know, what they can, what they can do to prevent this and then also what they want to look for to get to you before it really becomes a problem?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So prevention, you know, we already talked about the, the socialization factor if you have a puppy, but, um, making sure that you're only using positive reinforcement based training because, um, we know that punishment, whether it hurts or not, um, punishment can increase fear and anxiety and that can lead to potential aggression in the future. Um, so those key pieces and then in terms of, um, you know, what can you do and when should you, you know, do something the sooner this, as soon as you see any signs of fear, anxiety, or stress in your animal, whether it be at the veterinary office or a loud noise, you need to ask your veterinarian, ask a, um, positive reinforcement based trainer or behavior consultant or of course, ideally very behaviors, um, to intervene so that that doesn't get out of hand and, um, end up in with issues that are, you know, potentially in the euthanasia.
Kim:Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your, your wonderful wealth of knowledge with us and, uh, thank you for watching.
Speaker 4:Thank you. Thanks. Goodbye.
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